Talk:Therian Temple/wikifur
Therian WHAT THE FUCKING SHITTY DICK-SUCKING HELL DID I SAY AT talk:therian?!?!?!? '- ''cchristian talk' 02:55, 21 April 2007 (UTC) :ok, maybe I need to calm down. But it is true, this is THERIAN and does not belong on WikiFur. It is also kind of annoying that he would post an article like this during all this drama. :Note to said individual: Please Stop, I am rethinking my offer of a spot on Therian. Then again, I still don't believe you. '- cchristian talk' 02:59 (and 3:05), 21 April 2007 (UTC) Deletion? This article seems extremely biased and honestly I think this article has no place on wikifur, as it's promoting sales instead of providing information. If we had an article on Scientology, how would that be handled? Personally, I think this should be viewed the same way. Banrai 03:39, 21 April 2007 (UTC) :THANK YOU. '- cchristian talk' 03:49, 21 April 2007 (UTC) :I think the sales pitch stuff needs to go, but the actual informative stuff could stay. Who? what? where? why? how? when? That kind of stuff. Would anyone like to rewrite the article in a professional standard?--Kendricks Redtail 09:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC) ::The problem, I believe, with your solution Ken is actually finding someone that CAN write the article in an un-biased tone. Personally, I'm still voting (for what it's worth) for deletion.--Banrai 12:40, 21 April 2007 (UTC) Why is this here anyway? look, this is WIKIFUR: the furry encyclopedia. about the furry fandom. An article about an unpopular group that targets therians dosn't really belong here, and is stirring up drama (mostly with me, driving me crazy >. .<). I've already said "let's move it to the therian wiki when it's up", I'm going to bed, please discuss it so I can be ready... '- cchristian talk' 03:45, 21 April 2007 (UTC) :I know there are distinctions to be made between the various fandoms, but there are articles related to therianthropy, were, otherkin and all sorts of other good stuff on this wiki. Because they tie in sort of, I suspect.--Kendricks Redtail 09:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC) :The article is here because things don't always fall into neat little compartments. There's crossover between furry fandom, therians, otherkin, anime, science fiction, etc. That's reason enough to have this article here.----DuncanDaHusky(talk) 12:19, 21 April 2007 (UTC) Reckless Slander-Total lies & Opinion Removed this: "Members of the popular and reliable online forum "The Werelist" have commented that it only exists to con new and unsuspecting therians out of their moneyhttp://www.werelist.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=26309&sid=65026a959bb4552b22286e09d737c8f9. Such groups are often known to prey upon new therians, especially cults, who kidnap and kill therians quite a bit. Others suggest that this is a cult meant to promote the founder's own idealogyhttp://www.werelist.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1376&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15. Some false accusations suggesting that blood-drinking or other violent activities take place were primarily based upon the red and black scheme of the group's original website. (citation needed)" Reasons: aside from citation needed-it accuses a group of illegal activity. If this is supposedly going on, police, NOT online wiki pages should be informed. It is also CLEARLY an advert for the werelist, claiming itself to be "popular and reliable", neither of which claim can realistically be proven. There is NO documentation of this EVER happening anywhere: "Such groups are often known to prey upon new therians, especially cults, who kidnap and kill therians quite a bit." If any such group KILLED anyone...there would be records of this. Lies and false accusations ARE not objective information. - :I have removed the recent edits that take away the NPOVness of the article, what little of it there is. However, I have let the references stay and sit. As far as The Werelist goes, by my own information, which is limited, it is one of the most heavily trafficked and comprehensive sites, as well as free, that I can find on therianthropy. So such a claim could be REASONABLY accurate. Nevertheless, I have toned down the tone. On the same token, I'd like to request you do so too. WikiFur is not a KoolAid stand. It's not a place for detailed touting of your beliefs, neither is it a place to advertise to come on over. I would suggest a massive rewrite be done by a neutral third party. For the record, according to my dictionary, a cult is defined as "a religion or sect considered to be unorthodox or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader." If the shoe fits, wear it. Frankly, I believe that any religion that "sells" its mysteries for easy payments, call now, to be bumpkus. This includes TV evangelists, before you start citing them. Religion and faith and knowledge should be freely available to the masses. No charge. But that is my own personal opinion and addendum and has nothing related to my administration here, as I am required to take a neutral stance here in my duties. --Kendricks Redtail 17:43, 21 April 2007 (UTC) ::I'd just like to note that the small edits I made were taken directly from information I found on the Therian Temple page itself. Hardly slander if they say it about themselves, aye? Banrai 18:01, 21 April 2007 (UTC) :::Mr. Cocksucker, No one said that "Therian" Temple Kidnapped or Killed anyone. I made a point that many of the insane accusations were false. The citation however, was for the bits about some of them, like drinking blood. IF you were a Therian (which you are NOT.) you would know that cults often DO prey upon Therians, kidnapping them to be "oracles" and such, or sacrifices. Please stop slandering the title of therian, as it is truly offensive to REAL Therians. '- cchristian talk' 03:50, 24 April 2007 (UTC) Regarding: "Mr. Cocksucker, No one said that "Therian" Temple Kidnapped or Killed anyone. I made a point that many of the insane accusations were false. The citation however, was for the bits about some of them, like drinking blood. IF you were a Therian (which you are NOT.) you would know that cults often DO prey upon Therians, kidnapping them to be "oracles" and such, or sacrifices. Please stop slandering the title of therian, as it is truly offensive to REAL Therians. - cchristian talk"--- Please give an example of ANY "cult" that has ever kidnapped or harmed a Therian, or that drinks blood. Are there police reports? News articles? ANY proof of something like this EVER happening? Please provide links. If you cannot do so, please stop making up fairytales...also, considering that I myself am gay, what is wrong with being a "cocksucker"? Is that supposed to be an insult?~tolerant- :If you are going to become insulted by my rash insult, I guess I should note: I DRINK BLOOD. I am very annoyed at the fact that you would say that you were accused of "drinking blood" as if it was something bad, or that Vampire-Kin Do not do it, as well as some therians. please do NOT attempt to shake relations between the Therians and the Vampires as we are already having difficulty with recent hollywood type media talking about a "War" between our two groups. We are not discussing Vampires, and your attempts to shake relations are pathetic. :As for the cult business; Therian Temple is considered by those who do a little looking to be nothing more than a scam. No reasonable were will make a strong claim that Therian Temple does anything remotely like what cults have been known to do. As for cults harming therians, many cults harm therians, that is a fact. you would not understand this, as you are not a therian. :What I can see you are doing here is a very common cult trick of muddying the waters with this sort of "he accused me of murder! that's a lie! he's bad!" in order to try and gain footing against an opponent when your own home-ground, frankly, Sucks. I am sorry that so far I have not been reasonable, I will stop. I am perfectly willing to talk honestly, peacefully, civilly, and respectfully if you will do the same. '- cchristian talk' 05:37 (and 05:51), 14 May 2007 (UTC) ::Ok, sir, again you have shown NO PROOF of ANY "cult" EVER harming ANY therian. ::Where is even an article about this??-please enlighten me here... ::Chances are, you are just making it up, or going on rumours in your own social circle. Also-how do you define "cult"-anything not big enough to have its own building?? ::Secondly, what is the "scam" involved with Therian Temple? Again you have NO PROOF. ::What type of scam* do you mean-we don't make any promises to anyone, as it states right on our site, so how could it be a scam??-people order the book, we have it printed and shipped,they read it and use it- wherein this "scam" you keep talking about?? ::Thirdly, the only legally recognized Vampire religion, the Temple of the Vampire says right on their site that physical blood drinking is not allowed-so whoever drinks blood, does it of their own volition as an independent act, not part of any organized "vampire" group. ::Also, I have never heard of ANY therians, except YOU right now, who think drinking blood is OK, or who would claim to do it, or that Therians do it. ::Fourthly, there is not and never has been any "war" between vampires and therians, nor should there be. ::Calm down. ::Lastly, I myself am a Wolf Therian, for your information. ::Magus Fenrir Therion, Therian Temple MagusFenrir(talk) ~~ 19:28 (to 19:32), 19 May 2007 (UTC) :Once again, you have COMPLETELY ignored what I said: CULTS KILLING/KIDNAPPING THERIANS IS NOT RELEVANT, No one has ever made a serious claim of Therian Temple doing this. I will not discuss this in relation to Therian Temple, as it is not related as Therian Temple DOES NOT kill/kidnap therians and is not being accused of it. :Also, It is good that we both agree that there has never been, and never will be a war between the Vampires and Therians. I was simply becoming annoyed at the fact that you make the claim that you have been accused of "Drinking Blood" as if it is such a bad thing. (I would also like to note that, most vampires do not drink blood, and may also feed off of sadness, sexual energy, pain, and thought. the ones who DO drink blood, either take a small amount from willing donors or from raw steak. I drink blood from raw steak, as it's not wholesome to consume human blood.) :While, as I said, it is not common to drink blood, I am sure that there are were-vampire bats and such who have a desire and , seeing as there is nothing wrong with it, give in to the urge to drink blood. Many therians (wolves, foxes, and big-cats namely) have also noted that while they do feel sorry for the dead animal, in a spiritual way, they also have the urge to eat roadkill. They of course, don't give in to this, but still have it the same. :also, I am aware of, yet do not care about, the Vampire Temple (which I actually heard of just after I made my last statement, and is supposedly part of the same scam as Therian Temple) is not a commonly accepted group within the vampire culture, and all the same, Isee them as having as much authority/relevance as Therian Temple. I would also note that it is NOT the only Vampire related religion. :I would discuss why I continuously say "Scam" with you, but I am currently making such large responses to your pointless and irrelevant arguments, that I am not going to say what would make my response twice as large. :I am also very confused as to why there would be a "Therian Religion" as you say, as Therianthropy in itself has little to do with Theology, and has nothing about gods, magic, holy powers, prayer, etc. I am MonoTheistic, Conservative-Jewish, I have no problem with being Jewish AND Therian at the same time. :As to your claimed "therianthropy", I seriously doubt that you are a therian. can you explain anything regarding it? Therianthropy is not just some religion, you do not simply take the "oath of Therion" (which I still don't understand what it is supposed to be... Therion is a Wolf constellation...). Therianthropy is a random Mental/Spiritual condition, it is not easy to change whether or not someone is one, if it's possible at all... but if you are going to continue to make this claim, I guess that I will leave it at this statement. :still waiting to directly discuss the situation at hand, '- cchristian talk' 21:59, 19 May 2007 (UTC) ::There is nothing at all wrong with being Therian & Jewish at once. ::However, If you drink blood, you are breaking the rules of Judaism, which you claim to follow, and reinforcing anti-Semitic blood libel. ::For your information the word "Therion" is Latin for "Beast".:: ::It is where the word "Therianthropy" comes from. ::The Latin world was only used later to name a constellation. ::You have never met me, and I do not care if some hyberbolic blood drinker online who may or may not even be serious thinks I'm not Therian, when I live my life as a Therian everyday. ::Also, you clearly stated that you "can't understand" some of what I'm talking about, and this is obviously the entire issue. ::You simply are not capable of understanding simple things which are explained in plain text: all the issues you bring up are addressed in the Therian Temple's FAQ page, including the idea of Therianthropy as a religion (as it states on our site, MANY of our members do not consider it a religion-not every magical practice is a religion), the meat issue(we are not all full-time vegetarians, if you would read our site, you'd know this). ::Magus Fenrir Therion, Therian Temple MagusFenrir(talk) ~~ (comment signed, but edit from anon ip) :::I am quite offended by the way you talk about Judaism. Top correct what you said: Drinking blood is not "against the rules", it is simply Not Kosher. I do not eat kosher except on Shabbat. I also do not drink the blood of human infants, I have NEVER consumed human blood, and, as my blood drinking is NOT a Judaism issue, I see it as unrelated. Please DO NOT PRACTICE INTOLERANCE IN A SIMPLE DEBATE. :::I was aware of the origins of the word Therianthropy. What I do not understand is WHY you are making up such things to make it sound more extravagant. :::as far as I know, I am not "Hyperbolic". I do not have Sine, Cosine, Tangent, etc. I don't know what you meant to say, but it sounds like you are calling me Anemic or something??? Doesn't matter. My personal habits are not being discussed here. I still do not believe you are a therian, I'm not even sure if you think you are, and at this rate, you will never be able to prove it to me. It does not matter right now, Let's get on with the actual discussion. :::You are correct. I do not understand, and I will not if you continue to act this way. but I am getting a good picture at your so-called "therian beliefs"... but I did take a look at your site a few months ago when the link was first deleted, and I did not like what I saw. I do not see why you keep it so secretive, why, if you believe it to be right, you do not share it with others, and if it is worth-while, they would buy the $30 book. :::the meat issue doesn't matter right now, I'm sorry I brought it up, we should drop it as we are not discussing such right now. :::as for this "Therian Magic", I would have to see what you are talking about. :::I'd REALLY like to start talking about the matter at hand. '- cchristian talk' 18:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC) : "Hyberbolic" is the adjective to describe someone using such hyperbole as your own. hy·per·bo·le (h-pûrb-l) n. A figure of speech in which exaggeration is used for emphasis or effect, as in I could sleep for a year or This book weighs a ton. hyperbol, from Greek huperbol, excess, from huperballein, to exceed : huper, beyond; see hyper- + ballein, to throw; see gwel- in Indo-European roots. Ok, so you have made clear that you do not eat only Kosher. At least you cleared up that you do not drink HUMAN blood, which you have not stated previously. The point is, none of the Jewish people I know, including family members, would ever approve of drinking blood. But, dont you dare call ME intolerant when your apparent entire goal is to try and diminish the name and worth of the system of belief to which I adhere. Also, I doubted that you were a Therian from the first post I read by you, because you are so closed-minded and intolerant of other peoples beliefs outside your own. You seem to think anyone who disagrees with you is simply WRONG, and should be silenced, or at least ostracized. Unfair. Lastly...there is NOTHING "secretive" about the Therian Temple, aside from the fact that we do not disclose our members personal information. Everything we believe in and practice is readily available:our basic tenets are on the site, rumours & questions are answered in our FAQ page, and ANYONE can buy the book and read it WITHOUT becoming a member, which, again, if you took the time to read through or site, you would already know. Magus Fenrir Therion, Therian Temple MagusFenrir(talk) ~~ (comment signed, but edit from anon ip) :This has to be the stupidest conversation I've ever read. First we had someone talking about a junk edit (fair enough), which was quickly followed by cchristianTehWazzit's paranoid rantings about cults supposedly kidnapping/killing therians. And if that wasn't enough, the conversation then moves to hollywood type media" supposedly suggesting a war between Otherkin and Therians. I can't remember what that movie was called, but you should really quit taking the movies so seriously IMO. And finally we have a pair of "weres" arguing over who is a real therian and who isn't... : For your own sake I truely hope anyone involved with this conversation was jokeing. : And the stupidest part? I was able to post this without having to create a sockpuppet account. : 17:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC) ::(note that I though to say this before I read Smark's comment... YOU HEAR ME??? YOU DIDN'T AFFECT ME YOU LITTLE ************!!!!1!11!) ::Sorry it took me so long to respond... I was busy with other stuff... This entire argument is pointless. It has nothing to do with the matter at hand. We shouldn't be continuing with a set of arguments completely unrelated to the matter at hand. so whatever. Sooner or later we have to agree on something, and I'm going to stop with the bullshit and try and get this back to a discussion instead of a pointless argument about nothing. Here is a list of things we probably agree on: * Therian and Furry aren't the same. this article really doesn't belong on WikiFur. * Newly Discovered Therians really don't need to see this. Stuff like this is only for long-time serious therians. as you yourself said, you don't want people who are "just looking", you want Therians who know what they are doing. * Therian Temple is not very well respected in the community. We can agree on this I'm sure. Maybe the things said about it aren't always true, but most people don't like it. * This IS important. Therian Temple IS note worthy. I know about it, Werelist knows about it, "Codeine's Mum" may even know about it. We can't say it's nothing, no matter how many/few members it has, most have heard of it. * The Criticisms section is bullshit. Anyone who thinks that Therian Temple members drink blood has been stuffing something up their nose. Nobody worth asking seriously thinks that and there's no real reason to say it. * It doesn't matter who is/isn't a therian or what we do personally. Arguing about that is stupid and irrelevant. * Therian Temple is not an insane Cult and is not going to hurt anyone. I think the entire thing is crap if you ask me, but on review, I guess it MAY be about as legitimate as alot of the weird stuff I see on some Otherkin boards (I don't know, I can't know, I don't own a copy of the "Therian Bible") I don't think it is, but if people follow it, who cares... I'm pretty sure we can both agree on that, so we need to stop debating what is blatantly BullShit and think up a compromise. :Here is what I think is fair and what we should do: * This article should be deleted from WikiFur. - It has NOTHING to do with Furry and is just causing anti WikiFur drama within the community. * We will make a new article at Therianthropy.wikia.com - It DOES belong there. I would LOVE to see it there, it has so much relevance. * The article should be factual. Not full of bias (that goes either way). It shouldn't be the FAQ page for Therian Temple, and it shouldn't be completely Negative. * The entire debate over whether or not Therian Temple is something extreme here should end. starting here. It's a stupid debate that can never end. so there. The End. How is that? I can agree to all of that (don't like some of it, but I'm happy to agree with all of it) Do you like it? any changes? or are we settled? '- cchristian talk' :Alright-making some sense here now. I agree arguing over fine points was getting ridiculous, this is why I hadn't even come back to this page in a while.... I think the article initially ended up here because my roommate Jon, (a furry) frequents this site and found an article on Therians so he thought he should put an article on Therian Temple, then some other people started editing it, yadda yadda... So,fee free to put a new one on the Therian Wiki you mentioned.. Peace to you all, Magus Fenrir Therion, Therian Temple MagusFenrir(talk) ~~ :yeah. So we should get them to delete this one? it sounds like we both agree... You may want to edit it though, I put it at w:c:therian:Therian_Temple. I would hope that you would actually edit the wiki, as we need some more people to get some articles... (and I don't understand terms well enough to write detailed articles on anything more complex than shoelaces... ^.^;;) :'- cchristian talk' : Ok-do whatever they do here to edit it, or make it redirect to the Therian Wikia page perhaps? I just edited the one there, I just copied the article from here to there, if that's ok. And I shall try to help over there as much as I can. Peace, Magus Fenrir Therion, Therian Temple MagusFenrir(talk) ~~ ::Ok then. I'll get them to delete this one. see you there! >. .O - [[user:CchristianTehWazzit|'cchristian']]talk -''Dragon-Admin of teh wiki! >. .O Ask me. Ok-My roommate, a furry, not therian,(who made the post above) directed me here. He has been watching this-I think he calls himself "Tolerant1" online. There is clearly some amount of confusion going on about this article/topic. Due to possible conflict of interest, I will not personally edit this article, however: If there is reliable information needed about the Therian Temple, please go straight to the source and email me: ordovirbestia@theriantemple.com For the record: One thing can be certain: no TT member has ever committed a crime. If any member was ever to do so, they would have their membership immediately revoked (we don't even allow illegal drug use). Stating in an online resource that we are involved in ANY criminal activity is in fact a legal issue of libel / slander (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slander_and_libel) and legal action WILL be taken against any people making such false claims. Peace to you all. Magus Fenrir Therion, Therian Temple MagusFenrir(talk) ~~ 12:33 (to 12:47), 21 April 2007 (UTC) :RULE No. 1 - No threatening legal action. *laughs at a cocksucker* '- ''cchristian talk' 03:54, 24 April 2007 (UTC) ::Rule #2. No personal attacks. The "cocksucker" remarks are WAY out of line. --Douglas Muth 14:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC) :::The user has already been reprimanded for this and has served a suspension from WikiFur. But thanks for reminding us of the rule here. Very important.--Kendricks Redtail 18:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC) Recent edit? I reverted the recent edit because it seemed a little fishy...any more knowledgeable persons wish to help with the accuracy of the edit? Spaz Kitty 05:21, 12 May 2007 (UTC) :yeah, that's not true. NO ONE has EVER accused them of ''Drinking Blood, and if they did, there is NOTHING wrong with it. I drink blood. Therian Temple is generally regarded as a Scam more than "dangerous" or "illegal", so many of those claims of being accused of such are false and/or misleading. '- ''cchristian talk'''